Ronnie Landis: Greetings and aloha. Welcome to another episode of the life mastery podcast. Where we are diving deep into physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual development. I am your host Ronnie Landis Well, I am so excited for today’s episode. Been waiting for this to come out for a number of weeks. This podcast is with a dear, dear sister and sole ally of mine, a colleague.

Her name is Ruby Fremon. She is an incredible personal development coach, a self mastery mentor. And also a bit of a health expert herself. Um, and there’s so much I could say about her. She’s also a mystic, a practitioner in the shamanic arts, and a very uniquely integrated woman. I could say about her, I have so much respect, admiration, and reverence for her embodiment, for her as an individual, for her as a friend, and also for her as a professional in the incredible work that she is doing to illuminate the world.

Illuminate people’s potential in all areas of their life. And this episode was truly, truly remarkable. I am about 46 minutes into listening to it just in my own pleasure and leisure as I do sometimes with these recordings. And I got a tight schedule today, so I stopped it just to be able to record this intro and get it out to all of you.

Because I needed to bump this episode up in the queue because it is so good. Um, I know that this is going to be incredibly helpful, transformative. It’s going to provide some semblance of healing or at least the access and the tools for healing. For many people that listen to this and it’s really sparking some things within me as I listen to the conversation we were both in just a synchronic flow together and um, I just really Really happy with this episode and i’m really excited to share it with you There’s so much I could say about it We go deep into the topic of ayahuasca.

It takes about 45 minutes for us to get there, but once we do, we go deep into both of our personal experiences with the plant medicine known as ayahuasca, the philosophy, the spirituality. The experience. And also she goes deep into helping to prepare people that are interested in having this very sacred and very unique experience in preparing people to do it in a safe.

setting with the right type of maestro, maestro meaning master, master of ceremony, um, the right type of shaman in providing a really great and effective roadmap for people that are interested in having these experiences. Also talking about some of the cautionary tales that people need to be aware of when they are entertaining this type of experience.

Thanks. And, um, I won’t go too much deeper into that, but we go deep into it in the podcast. The first 45 minutes of this episode, though, are absolutely gold. Like we go deep into the death and rebirth cycle, how to navigate that process. We go into both of our perspectives, but more so Ruby’s perspective on the idea of devotion versus discipline, unwinding that whole idea a bit and helping people find the truth of their own devotion, finding out what it is that you’re truly devoted to versus the things that maybe you feel like you have to be disciplined or obligated or are in some form of duty, but maybe are not really truly authentic to you.

And maybe causing misalignments in your, your, um, your life and your body and your energy and your psyche. I think we can all relate to that. So I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna try to explain this anymore. I’m really excited for you to receive the potent medicine of this incredible episode. And before we do, I just want to shout out to our show sponsors, BioOptimizers and Nutopia.

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Okay, now let’s dive deep with my friend and sole ally Ruby Freymon. Ruby Freymon, welcome to the Life Mastery Podcast. 

Ruby Fremon: Ronnie, thank you so much for having me back on the show. Such an honor. 

Ronnie Landis: Of course. And it’s an honor and a privilege to drop in with you in this now moment. It’s been about two years since we both did podcasts for each other.

And it was funny because I was scanning on Facebook today and today as we’re getting ready to do this recording, I got an exact one year reminder on a post that I made about being on your podcast. I don’t remember the exact timeline when that happened, but I literally showed up this morning. So I was like, Oh, that’s, that’s beautiful synchronicity.

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. I think I saw that too. That’s awesome. 

Ronnie Landis: Yeah. I don’t know about you, but I’ve been getting just flooded with angelic numbers, synchronicities, God winks like the last couple of days. I don’t know if that’s in your field too, but God has been peekabooing all over the place. 

Ruby Fremon: Honestly, I feel that God has been such a huge presence in my life since January 2022.

And as I re emerged from a lot of trauma from last year into this year, and I am finally in this. Phase, the season of rebirth, I have been noticing, I wouldn’t call it, I guess I would call it synchronicity, but also this like different depth of allowing that is taking place in my life that has brought so much more ease and grace into every thing that I do.

Thank you. 

Ronnie Landis: Amazing. I love that. And that that’s, that’s perfect because the first question I wanted to ask you was, what is really alive for you in this season of life? 

Ruby Fremon: Oh, that’s a great question. What’s really alive for me in this season of life is integration. That is super, super alive. That’s where I’m at.

I am in a massive season of integration. Rebirth is also very alive. I’m in a season of rebirth and. I would say depth and intimacy are both incredibly alive in all ways. Depth, uh, cultivating depth within myself, depth within my service, depth within my offerings, depth within the way in which I show up and intimacy with self, intimacy with clients, intimacy in all aspects of my life.

Ronnie Landis: I feel that and you know, you and I, we did two podcasts, one for your show, one for mine about two years ago, anyone that’s interested can go back over those and you and I really connected through our mutual understanding and perspective, perspectile awareness of the theatrical production that initiated in 2020.

And we both moved to Austin like so many of our friends and peers and contemporaries in that window of time. And you and I have been in the personal development, spiritual development, community, and industry for a long time, but we had never really crossed paths. I’m sure we’ve like, we’ve, I knew, I knew who you were just on social media, but we had never really met until in Austin.

And I just remember that we both kind of like, We’re paralleling the very same thread of disclosure and really, um, really speaking up in terms of what we saw going on in the world in the spiritual battle. And we both were fully like fully on the quote unquote front lines, the digital front lines of that whole thing.

And so when you when you mentioned like. Rebirthing or healing from the trauma. I immediately assumed that it had something to do with that year or the two years leading up to 2022 because I know for me, I went through some really deep psychoemotional and spiritual, um, trauma work to put it lightly. And I’m just I’m curious what if you could kind of maybe just give a little snapshot of what that journey was like for you.

And I’m getting that’s going to lead into talking about death and rebirth, because that’s something I really want to dive into with you. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. I experienced something a little similar with the 2020 charade, the trauma actually wasn’t that the trauma was a personal trauma, but in the at the beginning, yes, I was very loud 2020 2021.

And I started to experience. A lot of depletion in my energy going like ending 2021 and going into 2022 and that’s when I really had to look at how I was presenting myself and and what was going on in the world and really look at the why. You know, why do I feel it’s so important to present this? Like, what is it that I’m really trying to do here?

And that’s when I realized, like, I have never been one to want to convince people. I think the people who are going to see it are going to see it. It’s just like the road to personal development or the path of addiction. When you want to get better, you get better. When you want to heal, you heal. When people want to see what’s going on beneath the veils, they will see it.

And. I can support guiding people towards that, but where I felt my service would be best offered would be in the healing aspect, in that this event, it wasn’t that this is a singular event that we’re dealing with in humanity. This collective worldwide. Trauma really unearthed everyone else’s individual traumas and brought everything to the surface.

And so if anything, I was starting to foresee all of this trauma coming to the surface. And all of these leaders who really had to go through this death and rebirth process in order to evolve with the way in which our world was evolving. And that’s where I chose to direct my energy. And so I started pulling back from presenting all the information because I felt that there are enough people doing that work.

I don’t need to add to this noise. Where I feel best. Serving is in these intimate spaces, serving the human, serving the leader in being who they need to be to their Dharma and possibly evolve their work and the way in which they serve the world because the world is rapidly evolving and calling forth an evolution within each of our us.

It was a really interesting shift for me, but one that led me deeper into my work and deeper into my gifts. And as soon as I started creating that shift and leading from that place, I started to replenish. My energy. And I started to feel excited again about the work that I was doing. Everything didn’t feel so daunting and yes, the world is what the world is.

You know, the shit is still happening. The agenda is still in full effect and we can get caught up in how depressing this is, but it’s, this is what’s happening. This is what’s present. This is what it is. We can’t fight it, but we can prepare ourselves to lead this new earth. 

Ronnie Landis: Yeah, beautifully said that that reflects my own sentiments, and that was very much my journey as well.

You know, at some point, I really came to that place to have just going through every, every cycle of. That process that you’re speaking to and being completely unearthed as the collective trauma was being unearthed and it, you know, I, I do feel like it was a very important initiatory process with coming to grips with reality or an aspect of reality that I think.

Was easy to spiritually bypass or personal developmental bypass or whatever language you want to use is just very easy to put underneath the rug and it had to come up to the surface and everything that was housed within us as individuals had to also come up to the surface and and this is going to be an interesting thing leading into the the death and rebirth process.

Thank you. Topic that you speak so eloquently about. Um, I feel like as, as quote unquote healers, teachers, um, transformational artists, it was very necessary for a lot of us to go through our own transformational process and transformational And in cold ourself and hold ourself through that process and learn how to heal ourselves to come out to the other end to, as you say, become the leaders or become the individuals that we are here to be in this planet.

Ruby Fremon: Yeah, I feel like we’re all being called forward in that way. And in, in the calling forward, we’re also being called, called in words to go deeper within ourselves, to find those places within ourselves that we have yet to fully express so that we can really lead in This way because the old if this has shown us anything it’s shown us that the old paradigm doesn’t work And that I don’t I’m not just talking about the government and the medical industry.

I’m talking about every single fucking thing. It wasn’t working This is an opportunity for us to reshape our path and reshape humanity. And that begins by us like really going deep within and facing those shadows and facing those traumas and cultivating a deep understanding of who we be and why we’re here so we can lead with truth.

Ronnie Landis: Beautiful. So with that said, I, I I want to know from your perspective and maybe your own personal experience, like in this particular window of time, the death and rebirth process. So many of us, so many of you listening to this. Have gone are going will be going through this process and it’s a very cyclical seasonal thing and that that topic in of itself could be an entire podcast and maybe it’ll it’ll be kind of the underpinning of the podcast.

I know for me, I listened to one of your solo podcasts on death and rebirth earlier today and it was just like so spot on for me and it provides. A very important context when we’re going through these experiences that maybe we don’t understand. We don’t have a manual blueprint. There’s no personal development guide for how to go through your own unique crucible.

Um, and it’s a, it’s a deep egoic undoing and unwinding. And it can be very challenging if we don’t have a context for what the experience is and why we’re going through it. So I know this is a, this is a big part of what you’re teaching and bringing to the forefront. I’d love for you to speak on death and rebirth and, and maybe share your personal, like your personal process with that.

Ruby Fremon: Yeah, there’s, there are definitely cyclical seasons of death and rebirth. And. There’s also a lot of glamorization of the rebirth process and the death process and eco deaths. And I think with that comes this complete misunderstanding of what this process really is all about. And for me, the, the death and rebirth process that I’ve been talking about personally has been the one that I’ve been in, uh, for the last four and a half years.

It’s my death. Season began at the end of 2018 when I took that first cup of ayahuasca. And I didn’t know it back then, I, I had no idea, but what followed after that was this really, really deep relationship with ayahuasca, where I was sitting regularly dieting in the jungle regularly, and letting go of pieces of myself, the first diet I ever did in the jungle.

I remember the, within day, the end of day one, I was crying in the jungle. I mean, we’re living on the bare minimum. So the environment and self was a shock, but I was crying because I had nothing to do. And I didn’t know what to do with myself. And I was sad that that was what was really. impacting me. And so my journey since then has been this unraveling from the doing, unraveling from having all the things, unraveling from doing all the things and being seen in all the places.

Sure enough, I built a very successful coaching business in a very short amount of time. I’ve been coaching since 2014. I was showing up in the, Page one of Google ranks within a year, I was being featured in dozens and dozens of podcasts. I had tons of content go viral. Like I was, I was in a season of hustling, but after a few years of that, the hustle starts to go down.

Get to you and I started to realize that this isn’t really how I needed to operate and so that first cup of ayahuasca really showed me the need to begin to slow down to focus on being to let go of the doing to focus on surrendering or as I prefer to say allowing things to unfold. 

Ronnie Landis: Thank you. 

Ruby Fremon: What I didn’t know at the time, mostly because when people talk about ayahuasca, they talk about the ego death, you go in ceremony, you have an ego death, you come back out and you feel reborn, and it’s like, that’s not the fucking 

case.

And I’m 

sure like there have been a few people who have experienced that. 

Ronnie Landis: Uh huh. 

Ruby Fremon: Only to be met later with like the truth. That was not the true death. What she does is she starts to pull strings and starts to loosen things up and shake things up. So you can see it because she never does the work for you.

And that’s what was happening. She started to just pull strings out. She started to illuminate things that I wasn’t seeing. She started to shake me up in a way were like, I couldn’t unsee what I was now seeing. And so I started to let go. I started to let go of doing so much in my business. I started to let go of a lot of the, um, putting myself in the forefront of my business, being seen in all places, all the time, letting go of coaching programs, letting go of working with so many clients.

And in an industry where everyone was scaling, I started scaling back and I started going more intimate. I never expected this death. Season to last so long and to be honest last year when I went in back into the jungle in May, I really truly thought that I was on the cusp of a rebirth and I came back and I was like, Oh my God, it’s finally here, my rebirth and then in June, I experienced a massive, massive trauma.

The whole world as I knew it, including human beings, completely changed. Wow. And it was like the pinnacle of my death where I didn’t know, I couldn’t trust anyone. I, I felt super like, like I need to hide. I need to isolate myself in my home. I was dealing with a lot of deception, with manipulation and a massive lawsuit.

Like, there’s just so much happening. And I was like, okay, God. Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m just going to pray because I don’t know what else to do. You have helped me strip myself down to the bare bones and I don’t, there’s nothing else for me to do right now. And that’s where I found myself last year.

I ended up going back into the jungle in November to just. Be with myself and be with the plants again, with no expectations this time, I didn’t go to be reborn. I didn’t go to complete my death cycle. I just went there to work and to be held. That was my only intention. And I feel that that, that intention.

I mean, I, I’ve already sat with the medicine over 40 times before this diet in November. And I went there and I was. At this completely just empty vessel, like open to anything that I went deeper with the medicine that I’ve ever gone in my entire life. And I was fully allowing, fully surrendered in some of the craziest ceremonies of my life.

Really opening my voice, really being present with her and her being present with me. And I came, it was the last ceremony of my dieta where she took me completely into the other realm. And that was a realm that I’ve always. Tiptoed around, I’ve gone in, I’ve come out, I’ve gone in, I’ve come out, but this time I went in and I couldn’t get out.

I was completely blind. I couldn’t see anything. I was super scared. I felt like I was having a heart attack the whole night and all I could do again was pray. I, I focused on the Ikaros. I focused on myself. I prayed, I sat with her and eventually at the end of the night, After having my closing chant from my maestro, he ended up chanting to me for another 90 minutes where I purged more than I have ever purged in my entire life.

And I sit with combo a lot, which says a lot. Um, I started to regain sight. And that’s when I realized, wow, I came out the other end. And that was a really profound experience for me because when you’re in the death cycle for so long, when you’re in that season of death, like this is four and a half years, you start to feel like, okay, am I ever going to come out of this?

Right. But you’re also in this equal state of complete surrender because there’s just nothing else to do. And it was a really profound experience for me because it showed me that the light is always within me and no matter how dark things get, I will always come out the other side. That all I can do is pray and trust.

Ronnie Landis: Yeah. 

Ruby Fremon: And so I came back into this world and continued to pray, continue to trust, continue to just be with this process and with this season of death. And sure enough, a few months later. started to really notice the parts of the death cycle that I was prolonging. And this is what a lot of people don’t realize is like, there’s like the obvious resistance where you’re like, I’m totally resisting this.

But then there’s these unconscious pieces of resistance. And for me, the unconscious pieces of resistance were the, was the grief of everything. That I once knew of myself in the world and I that sounds like it should be a really obvious thing But for me, it was like I had grieved all these different parts.

I’d grieved my identities. I had grieved my business I’d grieved, you know relationships, but to grieve my entire view of the world and other people and then to grieve the This version of myself that even when I thought I was being reborn into just to grieve everything. That was what I learned to be with and sit with.

And so the last few months of, or the last like nine months of the death season for me, which again was four and a half years were the most. grueling, the most excruciatingly painful, the most isolating. I never felt so alone. I’d never felt so abandoned. There was just so much going on for me that all I could do was just be.

You know, and I feel that that’s the piece that a lot of people don’t understand about death. There’s nothing to do 

Ronnie Landis: right. 

Ruby Fremon: It’s all about that. 

Ronnie Landis: That’s, that’s actually a really interesting point. And it’s so simplistically obvious, but it’s not obvious. At all, actually, when you’re in the human experience, because we are constantly doing, and if we’re not doing, we’re thinking if we’re, or we’re emoting, or we’re processing, or we’re, we’re active in some way, even when we’re sleeping, our, our brain, our operating system is still active.

So we’re not really orientated towards like what death actually is from a, from a physical human perspective. I thought that was a really interesting comment to make, which is death is doing nothing. 

Ruby Fremon: It really is. It’s, it’s like, if you imagine throwing an apple core in the dirt and just letting it be that apple core is going to do absolutely nothing, but it will eventually become the dirt.

Ronnie Landis: So, okay. So that made me think of composition, like composting. So that’s what you’re kind of getting at, right? Like there’s a, there’s a composting process that’s taking place. 

Ruby Fremon: Right. Without having to think about it. And when we think about it, we overcomplicate it. 

Ronnie Landis: Right. So, okay. So then for me and for the audience, let’s, let’s just for like, just entertaining that idea.

And, and I think it’s also, there’s a super practicality to it as well. Um, the doing and the being and the, the, the death and rebirth process. And you’re so right. Like it is such a glamorized. Idea like, Oh, had another ego death this week. I’ve just went into a medicine experience. Just did a psychedelic experience.

Just had a ceremony, had an ego death. Like it, it is like kind of this interesting. Badge of honor or, um, dopamine hit or something like it’s, it almost becomes its own like identity, uh, but that’s the interesting thing, right? Because then it can’t really be an authentic death because the disillusion, there’s a disillusion of identity.

Otherwise it wouldn’t actually be a true death, 

Ruby Fremon: right? And this is also one of the things people don’t understand is we need our ego. Our ego is our sense of self. It’s a sense of I it’s the sense of I am without that. We’re just. You know, the ethers, what the ego death really is, is the death of what you once thought you were, which then brings you closer to who you truly are, right?

Like, it’s not that we’re killing off our egos completely or killing off all identities. It’s. It’s the dying of what once was, or what we once perceived ourselves to be, or the lives that we thought we had, or the relationship that we thought we had, or the career that we thought we had, all of it. The, the badges of honor that we thought we get, got to wear, you know, with pride.

Right. It’s all of that disintegrating so that we can then become closer to our truth. you And that’s the, there’s another myth right there too, is people get so excited for the death because they feel with that comes the rebirth, but the rebirth is filled with uncertainty. It’s not that you’re going to go through this death process and all of a sudden, ding, ding, ding, you know exactly who you are.

No, you go through this massive grieving process and then this confusion and then this lack of clarity because now everything you thought yourself to be this life that you thought you had is gone. So who are you? What are you? 

You know, 

what do you like? What do you value? What’s happening? And so it’s filled with a lack of clarity.

It’s filled with confusion. It can be filled with, um, so much uncertainty, which then brings about feelings of more grief. And again, the only thing you can do is just be with the rebirth process, right? And I like to compare this to childbirth in, in, In the real old world where women could just give birth on their own, which is how we’re meant to do it.

We don’t have to push so much. The baby makes its way out. And in this modern world where people are, pregnant women are being treated like numbers, they’re being forced to push, forced to have cesareans, forced to do all sorts of things, which creates trauma in these children. And that. In itself, like that’s how we create trauma within ourselves.

When we try and rush and push this rebirth process, you just have to be with it. You just have to allow it to happen. And you don’t need to see it all. Like even right now, as I sit here in the midst of my rebirth, a lot of people are reflecting back to me, like, wow, it’s been so beautiful to witness your rebirth.

I mean, you reflected that back to me and I’m like. That’s awesome. And I still don’t know what the fuck I’m doing. Right. 

Ronnie Landis: Right. Right. It’s not a finished product. 

Ruby Fremon: Right. I am just following what feels most alive and what feels most aligned because at this point I am rebuilding and I’m doing so from a place of like my truth and that’s what people need to understand about the rebirth.

You do not need clarity. Fuck the clarity. Just be with it. 

Ronnie Landis: Yes. Okay. Amazing. I, that, that, that just connected something really important here. I was thinking this before you mentioned it rebirth, the, the, the language around it, like rebuilding is actually the key because you, you essentially, you now have the responsibility of a blank slate, i.

1. the confusion, nothing is in the place of what once was. So now You actually get to rebuild and recraft yourself and your life and how you structure your life based on your daily disciplines and devotional practices, right? So it’s, so the rebirthing process is its own kind of process. Like you said, of being, I’m thinking of like the sequence of like a, like a process, like a cyclical process.

And so like there’s the quote, unquote, Death, disillusion, there’s the rebirth, birthing process, which is a continual process. Then there’s, at some point there is the, the choice point of, I may not know who I am quote unquote, or, you know, I’m on a blank canvas, but now I have the choice to choose how to craft myself or my life.

Ruby Fremon: And that’s just it. Right. And also with that, the choice point, knowing that it doesn’t have to be. Such an ordeal. I think we put so much emphasis on making these choices and personal development is filled with all these stupid myths about voices. And it’s like, if we just followed what. made us feel most alive and what felt most aligned with our truth.

We 

don’t have to make choices. It just happens. 

Ronnie Landis: I love that. It sounds so much better. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. You can like breathe into that. 

Ronnie Landis: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, that, that, so, so that brings me to, I definitely want to go deeper into the topic of, of ayahuasca with you, but before we get there, This is a great bridge to talk about discipline or in my language discipleship and devotion.

I think that would be the most appropriate pairing based on your, how you teach about this. And I was really inspired listening to you and your recent podcast on devotion. And the way that you framed it in it, it’s, it’s very, it’s very much a sentiment of my, my heart as well. Growing up as a martial artist, being raised in that, that like dojo environment, the idea of devotion and discipline and honor and, and integrity and practice, um, just like in a yoga ashram or, um, you know, the dojo of life.

That, that is, that is something that is so important and also I feel like it’s, it’s kind of missing from our lexicon or missing from our Americanized culture. And I’d love, I’d love for you to share like, what is, what is devotion really mean to you? Why does that feel so important to bring into the, into the forefront?

Ruby Fremon: Yeah, devotion. I, so I was raised, um, with discipline. That’s how I was raised. I came from an immigrant family. We, you know, had to forge our path in a new country. And so discipline was very much the way that my parents were raised. It’s very much how we were raised as children. And it got to a point where, I started to notice that the discipline doesn’t feel good.

You know, 

I, I can be super disciplined. I’m super fucking great at being disciplined, um, more so than the average person, you know, I can do a five day water fast, no problem. I can push myself to, to train really hard. I can accomplish really, really difficult things and I’ve always been able to do so. So I do.

Respect the way in which I was raised. However, that doesn’t create longevity and it also creates this confusion around, well, what’s really important to me, 

you know? 

And so I was really disciplined around education, but it never, it never resonated with me. Like I never felt like I needed to have a university degree, but I was pursuing one because that’s just what I’d been disciplined to do.

And I got to a point where I really. Wanted to uncover what felt meaningful to me. Like, what is it that actually truly feels meaningful to me and why? And when I started to uncover what those things were, I could easily create a devotion to those things. For example, my health and wellbeing. 

20 

years ago, when the medical system failed me, that’s when I became devoted to my health and wellbeing and to, uh, alternative routes to health.

And since then I’ve been undeniably devoted to my health and wellbeing so much so that the discipline just happens. 

Ronnie Landis: Right. Right. 

Ruby Fremon: Right. Like the devotion creates the discipline and then the discipline ends up feeling really good versus feeling forced because it has a purpose. 

Ronnie Landis: Uh, 

Ruby Fremon: you know, like it’s really easy for me to say, no, I’m not going to hang out at your event on Thursday night because.

My bedtimes at 830. I know how I best operate, you know, it’s really easy to say no to things because I know exactly what it is that I’m protecting and you really, 

Ronnie Landis: you really did not to cut you off, but you really do live that because anytime I’ve ever invited you to any event, it’s like, like I now like, Oh, okay, I got it.

She sleeps. She’s that’s her devotion. She sleeps at 830 or nine. That’s, that’s, that’s like mandate on her devotional path. 

Ruby Fremon: Yes. Anyone who really knows me knows that about me. Um, and you know, in any aspect of health and well being, it’s just how I’ve been because I’m so devoted to that. And so when people start to complain about lacking discipline, it’s not that you lack discipline.

You lack devotion. You don’t know what you’re devoted to, or you are unconsciously devoted to something that is creating this lack of discipline in an area of your life. Like, for example, you could be more devoted to your old stories and your old patterns, the story of being a victim, the story of what happened to you.

You could be so devoted to that unconsciously that you continue to make choices that align with that devotion. And so the key is, is to really identify and uncover what it is that you are devoted to. Because a lot of times people want to want something. They want to want to be healthy, but they can’t be get healthy.

They can’t create the discipline around it because they want to want it. That’s not actually something that they’re devoted to. There’s something else that’s getting in the way of that. So the key to cultivating this sense of discipline that actually feels good, that doesn’t feel forced, that doesn’t feel pushed is to really get clear on what it is that you’re devoted to.

Yeah. 

Ronnie Landis: Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that’s a beautiful. A beautiful framework. Exactly. Exactly. My perspective as well. And they’re, they’re, they’re like very subtle, but very important distinctions in, in demarcations within the language set that we’ve adopted and been raised with and, and are kind of psychosomatic or I should say behavioral interpretation of, of what discipline means or what obligation means or what devotion means.

Cause it’s very easy if someone, um, doesn’t have a very clear interpretation of what those mean, they’re going to mistake one for the other. And for me, the word discipline, you know, in the spiritual community, it always kind of frustrated me to listen to people kind of skirt around this discipline thing of like, Oh no, no, no, it’s, it’s, you know, I, I don’t, I just surrender or I just, I don’t discipline is, you know, it’s, it’s like a negative thing.

And to me, and I was raised in a very similar kind of vein of work ethic and, and, you know, martial arts and athletics. But what’s interesting when I look back on it, I feel like what discipline is for a lot of people. And even what I feel like I heard from you is that it’s obligation. And when I think of discipline, like in its exalted, pure sense, it roots back to the word of discipleship.

And, and I like how you, how you clarified that devotion is actually like, if you look at the gene keys, like maybe obligation would be the shadow discipline might be the gift. And then devotion would be the city. So it’s like, okay, are we, are we, are we aiming our spiritual gaze high enough? Cause if we get stuck at like discipline, we might get stuck in this, this kind of like this little bit of a rut, but if we aim higher to devotion, which to me is like spiritual purpose or soul purpose that takes care of all the rest that takes care of the discipline, it kind of auto regulates or auto aligns your behavior based on what you’re truly devoted to.

Ruby Fremon: Yes, exactly. And that’s like what we haven’t been taught. We’ve been taught almost the opposite. Most of us at least is like, you’re just disciplined to do this because you are, because you’ve been told to be, because you’ve been told that this is just the way that you do things or this is what you should be doing.

And this is what the rest of the world is doing. Right. It’s like a super easy example is morning rituals. And it’s amazing how many people get so fucking caught up in morning rituals. It’s like, fuck the morning ritual. I mean, I just had, I just had one of my one on one clients say to me, uh, reflect her perception of me.

And she said, You know, I imagine that you wake up every morning and you’re super disciplined and you do your morning rituals. And I just don’t know why I can’t do that. And I was like, well, let me clear your perception. That’s not the truth. I am not. So, you know, most mornings nowadays, especially, you know, cause I’m going through a season of adrenal fatigue.

So I wake up and I go really slow and I drink my tea and I spend time with my husband and our puppies. And then throughout the day, I’ll pepper in my rituals. Whenever they feel good, but to me, the devotion isn’t to this time that I spend in the morning on my rituals. My devotion is to The, the inner work and my well being, which means that the container for that doesn’t have to look like this picture perfect morning ritual, it can be about the way that I choose to live my day to day life.

And 

that feels so much fucking better because if I’m gonna, if I’m going to sit down for a morning ritual practice, I don’t want it to feel disciplined. 

Ronnie Landis: Right. Right. Right. 

Ruby Fremon: You know, I wanted it. I want to feel present and alive and full and I don’t need it to look the same all the time. And, and so I think that there’s a place, I do want to say this.

I, there is a place for discipline. Without devotion, especially when people are just trying to figure shit out and get out of a really dark place. Sometimes the discipline is necessary, right? Like coming out of addiction.

Ronnie Landis: I was just thinking that’s exactly what I was just thinking right there. Yeah. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah.

Like you need to have this disciplined way of living your life. Otherwise you lose yourself. But once you gain your footing. That is such a perfect opportunity to start to reflect on what is really meaningful to you. What would actually feel good to you? How is it that you want to live your life? What is it that you truly value and create devotion around those things?

Ronnie Landis: So beautifully said. So, so refreshing, even for my nervous system, like, and it’s, it’s just really a great, Reflection of the divine feminine in fully embodied form. Like that’s one of the things that I’ll just share with you. Like that, I always really just. What’s the word? Just really deeply respect you and the way that you convey yourself and hold yourself and, and, and your message in your work.

Cause there’s not a lot of women that I found that from my perspective, like, and it’s just my perspective that have like a really solid integration of the masculine and feminine, but are also still very much Feminine. That makes sense. Yeah. And I, and I, and so I, it kind of just, it, it both commands and commands an interesting word, but it, but it, it captures a certain level of respect, but it also is very soothing at the same time.

And I, I feel like that’s also a reflection of the work that you, that you have done in the earnest and sincere devotion that you have to the work and, and to. The potent truth to quote your podcast and your book, the potent truth that you, that you’re a stand for. And I’m sure that all of your clients and all of your students feel from, from you.

So I want to, I just wanted to reflect that. And, um, and, and yeah, I’ll pause on that for a moment. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. Thank you so much for that reflection. Um, that means a lot because that has been a huge journey for me to shift from the, the force, the pushing the type, a, the, uh, just the over, uh, Ride in my masculine to more of what feels natural to me.

And I, and you know, a lot of people talk about this, this is the time of the divine feminine. And for me, I’m like, no, this is the time of divine integration. This is the time where we need to integrate the masculine and the feminine. Like we have both for a reason they are meant to work in harmony. And we will go through seasons where.

One is going to serve us more than the other, but the true work is in the integration of both and understanding when to work one more than the other. I actually feel more natural. Yes. And they support each other. I, the way that I describe it. So I’m a double Virgo with a Libra moon, so I’m very practical.

I like to bring practicality into spirituality. And the way that I always describe masculine feminine is the masculine energy is the glass. It’s the cup and the feminine energy is the water. So without the masculine energy, the water just would fall all over the table. And without the feminine energy, the glass would be empty.

We need both. 

Ronnie Landis: Yes. Yes. Yeah, we, we are both. It’s like that’s the, the, the most practical, pragmatic perspective on all of it. You can get to is like, yes, we need both. And we actually are both, you know, that’s a whole rant that I won’t go into just the, the separation and segregate of the masculine, the feminine and, and, you know, And I mean, since I did bring it up, I’ll just say this, my personal perspective and actually ayahuasca in particular has shown me this.

She has shown me this over and over in so many different ways that the exiting of the quote unquote matrix or the control system is actually the portal through divine union. Which is represented within the polarities of of us as individuals and also the actual men and women coming together in sacred union, like actual relationships coming together and what we call sacred union or divine relationships and, um.

And yeah, so that’s, that’s just kind of like deeply fascinating to me as well. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. And I love that. That’s what ayahuasca has shown you, um, relentlessly. Right. And, and, you know, when people think about ayahuasca, they think about, I mean, she is grandmother, she is the feminine, the divine feminine. And. She is the purest integration of both energies.

Ronnie Landis: Absolutely. 

Ruby Fremon: So of course she’s going to teach you that. 

Ronnie Landis: Absolutely. Like I, I have, this is a great segue into that, you know, but some of my experiences with, with Ion from my perspective and my, Relationship with her and I say relationship and you obviously speak in those terms to most people that are adept with that medicine speak of speak of it don’t even speak of it as like a medicine like MDMA or psilocybin or or these other things that are kind of like compounds and substances.

Um, I as an actual being, like I as an intelligence and my, my feeling on it. I’m curious what you think about this, what your interpretation is. My feeling is that the being known as Ayahuasca grandmother, if you will, to me feels like the Fido embodiment of mother earth. Like the spirit of Mother Earth, like, represented in that particular medicine.

Ruby Fremon: 100%. I mean, she, that is exactly she, Pachamama, that is exactly who she is, and she’s here to remind us that we are also of the Earth. 

Ronnie Landis: Right. Right. 

Ruby Fremon: And which means we are of the earth, which means we work in a space of duality. We work in cycles of death and rebirth. We work in seasons. There’s just so many potent reminders in living with the earth and as the earth, because we are of the earth.

Ronnie Landis: Mm. Mm. Mm hmm. The bridging of the stuff of the heavens and the earth. And when you bridge heaven and earth together, you get the word heart in the middle. And that, and that’s the, and that’s really that, you know, that is the, the rise of the feminine, the rise of the masculine, the rise of the exalted avatar human being is the awakening of the human heart.

And. Nothing in my experience has, has done that job as much as And I have such a deep reverence, and that’s also why I was excited to do this podcast with you because I haven’t really gone deep into the topic of ayahuasca. We’ve gone into it here and there, but never gone really deep into it on any podcast.

Strangely enough. So I was really excited to explore it. you because I know that you have a deep reverence with this medicine, um, and have a deep relationship with the Shipibo lineage, um, that you work with and, um, and do work in the, the medicine space. So I want to just kind of hand it over to you and just talk about talk about ayahuasca like for for anyone that’s just tuning in that maybe, you know, obviously it’s become very popularized psychedelics, entheogens, plant medicines, like these terms have become very popularized.

I think there’s a great aspect to it. I think there’s a problematic or a cautionary aspect to it, like all things. Um, so I’d love to just kind of Maybe delve into delve into it a little bit deeper and I don’t have an actual question. I kind of just want to hand it off to you. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah. Um, I feel that right now.

I was making her way through the world for a reason. And I know a lot of people feel this too. However, with that. Taking place. There’s also like this mismanagement taking place of her and we’re seeing a lot of Neoshamanism a lot of abuse with the medicine a lot of poor facilitation of her we’re seeing a lot of new ayahuasca schools being built in the Amazon jungle that really holds no reverence to the tradition of how one becomes a curandero or maestro or maestra, but they’re just quick to certify people in like three months or four months to pour the medicine.

So the way that I like to talk about ayahuasca is also with caution. Just because she’s calling you doesn’t mean that she’s calling you to sit with her, no matter what the circle, no matter who the facilitator discernment is key because what ayahuasca does is she helps you see beyond all the veils and into all realms.

She opens you up to all realms. And let me tell you, there are many different realms that. Are coinciding with the realm that we live in good and evil do exist. And when I say evil, I mean, evil entity, dark shit. And so when you’re sitting with a medicine, you are open to all of that. But as with everything else, I was also has a duality about her.

So there are even a well trained, well initiated curanderos and maestros and maestras in Peru in the Amazon jungle that are working with her in the dark side, in the dark energy. They’re often referred to in Shipibo culture as Bruja, the black magic. So that, that dark force is there it’s present and I have seen it so often in the Neo shamans because they don’t have as much experience and they don’t have the initiation to be able to understand or discern the difference.

And this is how we’re seeing a lot of people get hurt. In ayahuasca spaces, this is how we’re seeing a lot of entity attachment. I mean, I’ve seen a lot of wild shit in circles. I’ve seen a lot of entities I’ve seen a lot. And when you don’t sit with her with a reverence and responsibility or sit with people that hold such deep reverence and responsibility, you are opening yourself up to a lot more than you bargained for.

And it’s important to understand that. And so that’s why I like to start any conversation about ayahuasca with that. Um, not as a warning, but just as a, uh, use your discernment. Well, yeah. Yeah. 

Ronnie Landis: 100%. I think that that is the most appropriate way to, to contextualize this. And that goes with all, it goes with all substances, plant medicines, psychedelics, entheogens.

All do have their own place and set and setting but not everything is for everybody and not Anything is for everybody either. 

Ruby Fremon: Exactly. 

Ronnie Landis: And that’s a really important disclaimer with the advent of a more information in our digital, from our digital screens and social media and YouTube university than we’ve ever had available to us.

So our cognitive bandwidth. Is exceeding the capacity that our brain and nervous system are actually designed to process information, which means that we may not be able to fully process psychoemotionally the new bits of information that we’re getting when we watch a YouTube testimonial on ayahuasca at a, at a ayahuasca, um, retreat or something, or someone else’s experience.

We might not able to be able to fully process it, Especially if we’re coming from a dysregulated, um, you know, emotionally disconnected state because we’re raised in a city and we’re stressed out or maybe we have some kind of malady going on. So we’re trying to seek a remedy, which fair enough. And, and these things can be and have been proven to be incredibly powerful and effective in the right set and setting with the right practitioners and, and on and on.

But there is that important disclaimer that somebody does have to act with responsibility and, and, um, and just, just conscious awareness and has to do their due diligence. I’ll just, I’ll just end, I’ll leave, leave it on that. 

Ruby Fremon: Yep. 100%. And, uh, I like that you mentioned it’s not for everybody. Not every medicine is for everybody.

And, you know, we hear, People talking about, man, if everyone only just drank a cup of ayahuasca, our world would be a better place. 

Ronnie Landis: Oh, that drives me crazy when I hear people say that. 

Ruby Fremon: I’m like, hell no! We don’t want everyone, like, the people who are not ready for that depth of work, they are automatically going to be shot into the dark side.

Like, it just, that’s not how she works. And so when you feel called, you’ll know, you know, when people ask me, how do you know, you’ll just know you won’t be asking that question. You may be asking more questions from a place of curiosity, but you won’t be asking if you’re ready when you’re ready. If you’re ready, she will call to you.

She will start to show up everywhere. That’s just it and to when you go into it to go into it Not with the myths that are being shown out there about people going in and having these blissful experiences Yeah, like it’s not always like that. I mean, yes, you can have a blissful experience, but it’s not Always like that.

She’s there to show you what you’re not seeing, you know, 

Ronnie Landis: all my blissful experiences have been hard earned, 

Ruby Fremon: right? Exactly. And, and often, um, it’s also a very embodied experience. And so some people are expecting the fireworks and the, and the show, but then they might just get the full body experience. And yes, she does that.

You know, it can be very physical. It can be very spiritual. It can be very emotional. It can be all the things and it can be none of the things. So to go in knowing that, and then to also go in with an intention of what it is that you really want to work on, like, what is it that you really are seeking support or guidance with can help direct her medicine.

And she may just show you something totally different. Cause she knows that in order to work on. That intention, you need to see this thing 1st. Uh, so it’s really important to have that flow and flexibility when working with her, but to also understand, like. This isn’t just a straight shot to God. This isn’t a straight shot into a blissful experience.

This is some of the deepest, most profound inner work therapy you can do. 

Ronnie Landis: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s, it’s interesting. I was on a podcast a little while ago and I went on some riff and this kind of just popped out into the conversation. And I was just talking about, you know, I was like, you know, if you really want to connect to your heart, MDMA can really help you, but ayahuasca will connect you to your soul.

And I was making this whole point about going beyond the quote unquote heart, because everyone talks about you gotta be in your heart, you gotta be in your heart, make decisions with your heart. Well, I, I differ from that. I think we need to, the heart is, you know, it’s a tricky thing because if your heart is wounded, then that might not be the best place to filter your decision making from.

But there’s something deeper that, that most of us are trying to touch and, and we call it God or we call it source or divinity or spirit. I just want to call it soul because it’s who we are. And it’s, it’s really what we actually are in my experience of, of ayahuasca in particular. Is that it is connected me to the fabric in the, the, the kaleidoscope in the ancient memory of my soul as an immortal, infinite being.

Um, and with that said, and so when people hear that, it’s like, wow, that is amazing. And it is amazing. Trust me. It’s some of the most authentic experiences of me relating to myself in this life. And there’s also like, You’re opening yourself up to your soul being touched, right? Like your soul is now permeable in a sense.

And I think that that speaks to like the quote unquote set in setting. And also your, what you said about having the intentionality, like, in other words, you don’t want to just go into this blindly. You want to have some sort of like, um, backbone or kind of spiritual, like. Uh, yeah, like backbone or strength about you in terms of like your intentionality.

You don’t want to be whimsical or just like, Oh, we’ll just see what happens. Yeah, we will just see what happens, but there, I feel like there needs to be some sort of like, I guess what I’m getting at is like, and I just want to hear what, what your perspective and like what you would guide someone. Like, in other words, the preparation is what I’m getting at, like preparing to go into like a competition, preparing to go, not that this is a competition, but like an initiatory process, how would you advise somebody like prepare themselves mentally and physically, in other words, to go into an experience if they are being called into it?

Ruby Fremon: Well, one, make sure that you are using your discernment with regards to who you’re sitting with and the people that you’re sitting with, if they do not provide you with some form of initiation protocol, um, with the offer to support you afterwards with integration, then that is a red flag. You do not want to sit with those people.

So I’m going to start with that. Second, um, of course, you’re going to have the dieta protocol, which will be shared with you. But for me, the mental, emotional, spiritual prep is the most important. And leading into your ayahuasca experience, you really want to create spaciousness. And this is like one of the biggest mistakes I would make very early on in my journey.

Again, like when I first started sitting with Aya in 2018, I was doing all the things, you know, I was like, Kind of psycho. Like I had two podcast episodes airing a week. I was creating daily video content. I had all the things I was on. All the platforms had multiple programs. I was doing so much that to create space for myself felt really difficult because that wouldn’t just be me moving a few clients.

It would be me like. Moving a lot of shit. And so I wouldn’t create a lot of spaciousness before or after ceremony. Before ceremony, I would literally create spaciousness the day of and after ceremony, I would create spaciousness one day after and very quickly. I realized that that is not enough space.

That there is a, an initiation that takes place the moment you say yes to her that you need to allow to happen to unfold naturally and that there is an integration that to me, I’ve learned to be the real work with ayahuasca that also needs spaciousness. So to create spaciousness. in the week or weeks coming up to your ceremony.

I feel that the longer the diet, like if you actually are going into a dieta, like a 12 day, 14 day, one month dieta, then you have to start creating space a lot earlier. If it’s a weekend ceremony, allowing yourself to create space the week for full week prior is really great. That doesn’t mean that you can’t take see clients or or do the things you need to do.

It just means do less and be more. And sit in silence more, journal more, listen more, observe yourself more and notice how she is already showing up because she’s going to start guiding you before the ceremony even begins. 

Ronnie Landis: For sure. 

Ruby Fremon: And that part’s really important because that can also help set the tone for when you’re sitting with her.

It’s almost like, well, if you do that. It’s like, you’ve already met her. And so when the ceremony comes, you can dance together. 

Ronnie Landis: Uh, that’s so good. I love that. 

Ruby Fremon: And then the integration is super important. Like I said, I was only creating like a day and I would use that day really well, like go sit at the beach and just be in nature.

However, I realized I need a lot more integration and the longer the diet for me, the longer the integration period. Uh, so. You know, if you’re doing a week and sit like really plan for a week afterwards to just be with everything and let it unfold. I’m not saying the integration is only going to be a week.

The integration could be weeks, could be months, could be years. With whatever it is that’s being shown to you in ceremony and just to prepare for that, but having that space, just having a week where you can just be with everything and not worry about doing anything, I find that that allows more information to come forth and it allows more to become illuminated and also offers your system.

The spaciousness that needs to reset, because when you’re going through ceremony, I mean, you’re going through something, you’re going on a journey and it can often feel like you’ve just run a marathon. So you want to really offer yourself that time to recalibrate, to rejuvenate, to just reset and again, observe, listen, notice.

So that those parts are really important. And rituals can really support. Also in the initiation integration. So even if for anyone who has rituals, just to be in that ritual space a little longer, you know, whether it’s five minutes longer, 10 minutes longer, just offering yourself a little more time and space to be in that devotional practice with whatever it is that you pray to God, the universe, the plants, whatever it is, but just to really fortify and strengthen that connection prior to going into ceremony.

Ronnie Landis: Yeah, sage advice. I love that. And I’m curious if you would be open to sharing. Do you have any particular experiences or, you know, like when you’re, when you’re going through the journey to me, one of the things that I do love about it is that it’s like a quest. Like it’s not just like in a therapy session, although there are, there is a lot of therapy going on.

But it’s like I’m going on like a mythic quest within the fabric of my own inner realm. And that part for me is always, it’s partly entertaining, it’s also like very, it’s everything, it’s like I’m going through the entire movie of my own soul, but I’m actually living it, I’m not watching it, I’m going through the whole thing.

And that that’s a, you know, it’s an incredibly profound and amazing aspect of this human reality. Is there any particular experiences that you’ve had that you’d like to share with people, like that were particularly meaningful or, or anything that that comes to mind? 

Ruby Fremon: Well, there was the one experience that I shared earlier about the darkness.

Um, but I’ll also share this. My very first My first jungle dieta, my first two week diet in the jungle back in 2019, um, it was a super, super physical experience. I was dieting Bob and sauna and no, you’re out and no, you’re out is the tree of light, but Bob and sauna is, uh, what is known as a heart healer.

However, she’s also very much a physical body healer, and I didn’t know that. And so all of my ceremonies when I was in the jungle were extremely physical. I mean, excruciatingly painful. And I would struggle to purge. And I would struggle with the stomach pain and with the nausea. And again, this is really early on in my journey with ayahuasca.

I had only sat about seven on seven different weekends prior to going to the jungle. And I remember being in, in ceremony one night and I felt so nauseous and so sick and the knots in my stomach and I knew she was working on, on something. And I was just trying to force myself. To purge and I was crying and I didn’t want to ask for help because back then I never asked for help and at some point I was just on my hands and knees and I didn’t know what else to do And there was a part of me that unknown to me Asked for help quietly And I remember opening my eyes and seeing some of my medicine brothers in front of me just holding space And then one of them started to chant to me, our facilitator started to chant to me.

And afterwards, I asked him to take me outside of the maloca. I needed to breathe, I couldn’t breathe, and he took me outside. And I told him, I was like, I can’t purge, like, I feel so sick. And he’s like, what if you were to just stop trying to make things happen? What if you were to just stop forcing yourself to purge?

What would happen? And I fell to the ground and I just started sobbing 

and 

I saw in that instant and his beautiful reflection, all the ways in which I was forcing and pushing things in my life. That was how I lived my life. Force and push. And I just laid down and, and this was like on the bridge, um, outside the Maloca and I laid down and looked at the starlit sky and I just put my hands on my stomach and was just with the pain and just breathing.

And eventually that pain passed and I didn’t have to purge, but the pain passed and I realized then that a lot of these ceremonies I’d been sitting in, I was creating my own suffering, like, sure, there was pain, but I was prolonging it by trying to force the pain away or trying to rush myself through the process.

And the ceremonies after that experience, I really just allowed. And. Even though in Shopeebo lineage, you’re encouraged to sit up during ceremony. Again, the discipline, the net, the next following ceremonies in my diet, I, when I would feel that pain and I would feel her working on me and I really felt like lying down, I would lay down, I would place my hands over my gut and I would breathe, not forcing anything to happen, but just allowing whatever was taking place to take place.

And that was a massive paradigm shift for me in my life because it taught me the importance of, of allowing. And just being with a process instead of forcing it to be over instead of rushing through it. 

Ronnie Landis: Mm. Mm. The beautiful metaphor for everything that we’ve talked about in this conversation. 

Ruby Fremon: Yeah, totally.

Ronnie Landis: My final question in terms of ayahuasca for you, what, has there been like a prevalent theme, like a, a lesson and theme that Your collective experiences have shown you, 

Ruby Fremon: I would say that one of the themes that always comes up in different ways with all medicines, to be honest, has been the theme of allowing of, of letting go of the force, the push, and just to allow him to be, that has been a huge theme.

And then one of the most recent themes. Has been that of the light and the dark and that we are both things and that no matter how dark things get, I will always find my way back out into the light because we are both things. Those would be like the two themes that continue to show up. And again, in, in different iterations and different forms and different words, different visuals.

And I really feel like that they continue to show up because that is part of my Dharma. That is part of my path. It’s part of the work that I’m here to do of death and rebirth of, of darkness and of light, and of really. Guiding people on to this path as well. 

Ronnie Landis: I feel that I feel really touched by that explanation that that beautiful reflection for all of us and I sense that that is on some level the lesson that life is trying to teach all of us.

And I’m curious. What you think about? Why is that so challenging for us? This idea of allowing this idea of surrendering of releasing that which doesn’t serve. I know that you you went through a bout of addiction. You know that I do a lot of work in addiction, wrote a book on it and working on another one.

And you know, this is something I talk about. So much nowadays, but there’s so much that’s built into this idea of an addiction. We don’t have to go deep into that particular, you know, that, but this is what we’re all dealing with. Whether it’s a substance, it’s a person, place, or thing, or it’s thought loops, intrusive thoughts, OCD loops, control issues, um, real addiction stem from a psycho spiritual source.

So I’m curious, like, why do you feel like it’s. This is such a challenging thing for us as human beings to grapple with. 

Ruby Fremon: Oh, I mean, the way that we’ve been raised as a collective and all the bullshit propaganda that’s out there that even people in our personal development field continue to preach, right?

You have to go out there and get what you want. You have to hustle. You have to hustle harder. Go out there. Yeah. Go where, where are you going? Right? Like, fuck, there’s nowhere to go. There’s everything to be, but it’s, it’s, it’s this, it’s, it’s the idea of doing versus being, I mean, if we just think about the educational system, the entire system is built upon doing, and then you achieve, you do the thing and you achieve the thing.

You do all the work in kindergarten, you achieve the, the moving forward into grade one, you do all the work in grade 12 and your senior years, you get your call at your high school diploma. You do all the work in college, you get your diplomas or whatever it is. And. Then that’s baked into our, you know, if you work in corporate, if you work in any work for anyone, it’s like you do the thing, you get promoted, you do the thing, you get the raise.

So we’ve been programmed to be in the perpetual habit of doing. And we have not, I mean, few of us have, I’m not going to say this in a finite way because there are people who have been raised to value being. However, it’s. Far and few, and I think that’s changing, which is a good thing, but for most of us, we haven’t been taught to be, and even now, a really good example that’s super fresh on my mind is like, this whole thing about people.

People. Expressing our emotions, like sacred rage and sacred. It’s like, I get it. I even had someone once they were interested in sitting with my tribe and they were like, but you sit in the ship people way. Right. And I said, yes. And they said, well, so does that mean that I’m not allowed to express myself?

Because I want to sit in a circle where if I need to scream, I can scream. And I was like, this isn’t the circle for you. Like, There is a place for expression, but expression is not actually being with the emotion, and it’s a lot fucking harder to be with the emotion than it is to express it. Anyone can express an emotion.

It doesn’t take much. Go into a rage room to express your rage, right? Play some sad music to express your grief. But can you be with that grief long enough to actually move through it? Can you be with the rage long enough to actually move through it, to feel it working through your body, through your nervous system?

Can you do that? 

And 

us as former addicts, like we’ve been there because a big part of addiction and healing is. Is learning to be with the emotions that we previously were working to suppress. And so again, it’s like this pattern of, of like doing the thing and then you’re healed, doing the thing. And then you’ve got this achievement doing the thing and you’ve got these accolades, but the real work is in being.

And this is why people have such a hard time going back to what I was sharing about my first diet in the jungle. And how by the end of day one, I was crying, said nothing to do like legit. Crying, I had nothing to do. It was insane. It’s insane to me even now thinking about it because on my last diet, I get there, I put the hammock up and I lay down and I’m like, this is great.

But it took such a massive overhaul of deprogramming myself to get to that place of really honoring the beauty that comes from being. Being with oneself. And this is why so many people have a difficult time with meditation, with journaling, with any form of just being with self, with breathwork, whatever it is.

It’s not the actual thing that they have a hard time with. It’s not journaling that they have a hard time with. It’s not meditation they have a hard time with. It’s not breathwork. What they have a hard time with is being with themselves.

Yeah, that is the work. That is the work that we all get to do is to learn how to be. 

Ronnie Landis: Yeah. That, that, that is it. And that, that is the source point of, of all healing in a nutshell. And the being to me feels like the devotional quality of the doing. Because it’s not as because that’s where people get very confused too.

And that’s a whole other thing, like people’s inability to take simple ideas and then they take into extremes meaning like, Oh, if I’m being, I’m not doing, but what do you mean? There’s no, nobody’s doing anything. It’s like, Oh my God. Okay. No, it’s just, it’s, it’s who you’re being in your moment by moment experience you’re doing is a by product of who you’re being in the, the.

The doing is, is, is, is the quality of your doing is a byproduct of the quality of your being. It’s like the devotion and discipline thing, right? Like if you aim for devotion or aim for it’s the right word, but if you, if you align with devotion, then the things that you find yourself naturally disciplining, i.

1. doing are like an emanation of that. It’s not forced or it’s not manufactured. Does that, does that. Bit with your, your idea, 

Ruby Fremon: right? We don’t have to live with force, you know, like, yes, again, duality, right? There’s force. There’s flow. We have both. We can utilize both and flex both pieces at different times, but we don’t have to live in force where we’re constantly forcing.

And that, this is why people are living with overactive nervous systems right now. This is why people are living with prolonged stress. There’s too much force and not enough flow. Again, like duality, we can, we, we learn how to harmonize the two. But when you’re constantly pushing, constantly forcing, it’s like you’re working against are genetic and earthly blueprint.

Again, we’re of the earth trees, trees don’t have to fucking force themselves to grow. And sometimes they force their roots to grow into rocks, right? So there is the duality, but they’re not like forcing themselves to grow high into the sky. So it’s, it’s finding that It’s harmonizing it and I prefer the word harmony than to balance because it’s never 50 50 right.

It’s creating the harmony. And so I feel that when it comes to being, if everyone just took The time to to devote themselves to being with themselves for whatever amount of time works Maybe it’s just five minutes a day that you begin with to learn to just be with yourself in silence Don’t do anything.

You don’t have to meditate. You don’t do breath work But can you just sit in silence for five minutes with your thoughts with the sensations in your body? Can you do that? That, that in itself is such a great practice. And I share that because when I, um, had just entered my sobriety, so I stopped doing drugs first thinking that drugs was the issue quickly realized, no, it’s all things it’s alcohol too.

So then I stopped drinking and all of a sudden for the first time in like 18 years, I was being met with my emotions and I didn’t know what to do with myself. I didn’t have the, my, my. I didn’t have my drugs to hide my emotions. I didn’t have the alcohol to mask. So I’d be overwhelmed with feeling all I would do.

I would lay down on the floor, on the carpet, like a starfish. And I would cry or just be whatever with whatever was coming up because I literally had no idea what to do. And often my husband would come home and find me starfished in the room, crying, being like, what are you doing? I’m like, I don’t know.

I’m just super overwhelmed with emotions right now, and I’ve never felt this before. But that practice really taught me how to just be with Whatever it is, the sensations in my body, it taught me how to regulate through breath. It taught me how to Experience the, the beauty in some of the ugliest of all emotions and feelings.

And it taught me a lot about resiliency because the more that you can be with all of this, the more that you can be, the more resilience you create, you know, when we try and hide our emotions, when we try and do our way out of things, when we try and cut corners and bypass, we’re also killing any ability to develop resiliency.

And the most unresilient people are the ones who cut the corners the most. 

Ronnie Landis: Yep, yep. Again, beautifully said.

Well, Ruby, this has been absolutely incredible. Um, we got to dive into everything pretty much that I had on my itinerary and so much more. I really appreciate your depth, your embodied wisdom. Um, just, just who you are and how you show up and, and the stand that you are for what you call potent truth, which my understanding is, it’s really just the unbridled authentic truth that exists within each person when they take off the mask, when they take off the protective gear, as I heard you say in your podcast, I love that statement.

Um, And, and really just, and really do the work to, to be who we really are in a world that, uh, does as much as it can to try to make us conform to its, uh, its design. And so I just really commend you. I appreciate you. And I’d love to know for my audience, where can people find out more about your work, your coaching programs, your podcast, and anything else that you want to share?

Ruby Fremon: Yeah, definitely. The, the number one place where everything is housed is my website, Ruby frame on. com. You can check out my podcast on all apps as well as YouTube. It’s called potent truth. And if you are interested in diving deeper into uncovering your potency and your medicine and learning a new way of leadership, then I highly recommend grabbing a copy of my book, potent leadership you can find on Amazon and audible.

And, um, Other than that, connect with me on social media at I am Ruby, and you can find me mostly on Instagram and Twitter. 

Ronnie Landis: Beautiful. Thank you so much for being here. 

Ruby Fremon: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been awesome. I love these conversations with you. 

Ronnie Landis: Absolutely.